A Conversation with Brittany Cherweniuk and Annetta Latham – Video Transcript

Annetta Latham: Welcome to the new Artful, Creative Culture and Coffee Series. I’m delighted to be joined today by Brittaney. We’re going to be talking about community cultural development and engagement through an Indigenous lens. So, Brittney, welcome.

Brittany Cherweniuk: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I have a lot – we have lots to chat about and I’m excited to sit down. So for those who are joining us, grab a cup of tea, grab a cup of coffee and we’ll have kind of an informal chat.

Before we start on kind of the meat and potatoes. I want to take a moment to acknowledge where we are. So we are on what from an Indigenous perspective is called Turtle Island. A lot of people understand this as North America. We’re in the upper third of our country, on the western side. We’re on the east slopes of the Rocky Mountains and feeding from those glaciers. We actually follow the north Saskatchewan River to where we are, which in it’s today name is Edmonton. Amiskwaciy Waskahikan is also its traditional name. And this has been an important place in our territory for many, many years. So we’ve seen pre-contract trade routes here. We’ve seen a lot of history. We know that steps away from where we actually are in the building was the HBC Forts. So we have a lot of ingrained knowledge and perspective of where we are and we’re physically inside of MacEwan University. So it’s really great to to really look at that from that perspective of where we are. Within Canada, we have three major Indigenous cultural groups, so that’s Metis, First Nations, and Inuit. And so that is a little bit of where we are to frame us to get started.

My name is Brittany Cherweniuk. I am Metis-Ukrainian. I have family ties. I was born in Edmonton. My mum is actually from a small town, if you keep following the North Saskatchewan River, called Smoky Lake. Her father is a first generation Ukrainian and my grandma is Metis from Fort Vermilion. So, if you go even more north in Alberta, and we have family ties to Red River, which is kind of one of those main places when you look at the culture.

For the professional side, my, you know, “bio fun-ness.” I have been working within arts administration. A very long time ago. I took the Arts and Cultural Management Program. And what I really like to do is look at projects or positions that really allow me to create cultural connection and tell intergenerational or intercultural stories.

Latham: Thank you so much. As a New Zealander and a new Canadian, a very new Canadian, you know, it’s I am always amazed by land acknowledgment, and how that is different from my culture. You know, in New Zealand we do a very similar thing. It’s different but very similar. Ours is pretty standard. So we will, we – I would say, kia ora tena koutou katoa, which is, I’m welcoming you. And then I would honor my elders, and elders that are present, and the elders that are not, and the elders that have passed. I, too would talk about where I’m from. And so it’s really the storytelling I think is so important, so, so incredibly important.

So from an Indigenous perspective, and from a Canadian Indigenous perspective. So that’s the lens we’re talking about, rather than through the New Zealand lens. What is cultural engagement? When you know  as a new Canadian, the privilege I’ve had of meeting Indigenous, First Nations peoples has been absolutely wonderful. And you know, the cultural element of that is dance, drums, beadwork, all of those kind of things. From your perspective as an Indigenous person, what is Indigenous cultural engagement? Yes, that’s a big question. I know.

Cherweniuk: So I guess we can start kind of nibbling at this very large point. But I think when we look at it to the root, it’s how we’re interacting with our community. So if that’s in a formal way or a little less formal, but it’s kind of laying the groundwork for any work that we could do. And I think something that’s always important through my own personal experiences, and also my professional, is really making sure that we embed culture and cultural perspective in that. So if that’s having protocol – so culturally specific protocol where you are – how you’re initiating those conversations. If they go with having, for example, like a tobacco exchange or ceremony to kind of get that work started, or to build that relationship. And it is really just that in itself. It’s relationship building. And I think even when we’re talking about introductions, it’s that root relationality building. So you’re finding those kinship ties, you’re making those connections so you can really lay that foundation, work for whatever you you decide to build upon it.

Latham: So for those who are listening, who don’t know. Could you expand on what is protocol?

Cherweniuk: Yeah. So I guess protocol, for the simplest terms, would be those cultural nuances or those things that you do to initiate or do things in a proper way. That’s guided by our elders, and our teachings, and things like that. So if it’s starting things off with medicine or smudge, making sure that when we’re doing those, that we’re really asking those questions and being respectful, and then really following the lead of who we’re working with.

So that could be, you know. medicine, smudging, things like that. Ceremony falls into that as well. Tobacco exchange. That could be as simple as, you know when we start our meetings having you know nibbles, so a snack and tea to welcome somebody into your space. So really looking at that from a lens. But I think sometimes where people get stuck is, it doesn’t have to be scary. I think there’s those small baby steps that you can take. Tea and cookies or crackers, things like that. They’re not hard. But it’s to really set that tone. We know that, like, breaking bread and having those connections kind of make things start out in a good way. And everyone’s a little more relaxed, and then you can keep moving up in the formality of the situation.

Latham: I think that’s really exciting because one of the things that most people are nervous about, is where to even start. I mean, I know that from a New Zealand lens, when people come to New Zealand, it’s like what are we doing here? So it’s where to start. And like you said, ask the questions, and just start somewhere, is a better way to start. So in relation to community cultural development and engagement, you know, if you, for example, if you were a small, not for profit that was thinking about reaching out to your Indigenous community, how do that? Where does the work start?

Cherweniuk: Yeah. So I think it’s really understanding where you are. So, understanding where you physically are, whose traditional territories you’re on, what is the makeup of the Indigenous population of where you are. And then starting to reach out to see who you’re able to talk to. Are there other Indigenous organizations that have similar  programing for their community? Is that someone you can reach out to? And not being afraid to call and to ask those questions, and to be really straightforward with your asks. So, really looking at, if you’re working on a project, if you’re wanting to build longer term connections, what does that look like? And then making sure that’s clear when you go into it. And I think it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to start with a. “Oh, we’re going to have a formal MOU,”  A memorandum of understanding and cooperation between organizations or larger, even like government bodies. It could be, “Oh, we have this specific project or we have this piece of a project that we want to work together on.”

Latham: Yeah. So for you both as an artist, and you are an artist. As an artist and a professional who works in the field, what are some of the changes that you’ve witnessed and engaged with in relation to community cultural development and engagement throughout your career?

Cherweniuk: Yeah, I think if we look at community cultural development in a whole of who is telling our stories, we can really see that shift. So we know – Canada – you know, that whole British Commonwealth. There’s a lot of strange tradition of old white men telling our histories, telling our story. It’s through a non-Indigenous lens, and I think that’s where we’ve really been able to see that renaissance, and a lot of hard work has gone into that. So it’s Indigenous people telling Indigenous stories, and really reclaiming that agency and that perspective to be able to share those things.

And I think on the other side, it’s having non-Indigenous organizations, or other stakeholders really committed to understanding what that could look like. And I think for Canada, one of the biggest catalysts was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. So really looking at the legacy of the residential school system here in Canada, and then also understanding from that some of the Canadian laws, some of those things that made purposeful splits in our communities. So I think now that we’re at a place where we’re starting to really mend those relationships and really have that perspective and that truth telling, we’re kind of in this area where we can now work together.

And another thing that I will always credit is we have so many people that have come before us. We have so many amazing Indigenous people in their own rights who work within culture, within heritage, within cultural resurgence, who’ve really broken down those barriers, and really put themselves in those spaces to make room for other people behind them. So we’re really seeing kind of the fruits from that come to a place where we have younger generations of people be able to to step into those spaces in less of a challenging way than it might have been even a generation or ten years ago.

Latham: And I think touching on what you’ve talked about. Promoting inclusivity is not, is not hard. It’s like you said, know who’s in your community, talk to who’s in your community. And then by doing that, the very nature of doing that starts the inclusivity of community.

So. What would you say are some key points, if you could sum up three top points on promoting collaboration for projects. If I was starting, if I was starting a project – for example – if I was doing a film festival. If I wanted to start a film festival, what would be your three top tips? You can go over three if you like. What would be your three top tips for thinking about collaborative success?

Cherweniuk: Oh, man. Just, you know, an easy three. I think one of the foundational pieces for this is who is working on these things? Who is working on this integration? So I think something that I advocate very strongly for is that this isn’t something that can be off the side of someone’s desk. This has to have that weight within an organization where you have somebody working on this. You have what could be a dedicated staff, depending on the scope. You have dedicated resources to make sure these things are happening.

So looking at that. If you’re having community engaging, making sure that we’re paying our community members who are doing this work for us, because it is cultural heritage, it’s knowledge, it’s intellectual property that is unique to these cultural groups, and they’re experts in that. So, I think in the arts we’re really good for advocating for ourselves and other artists, but we need to make sure we extend that even further into these communities because it’s a similar situation. So I think having somebody who’s there having resources.

And then really looking at that integration and what that question is. So what is the motives of how you’re working together? What are those parameters. And how does this keep going forward? Is this a relationship you want to keep fostering and growing? Because I think sometimes we have engagement, and somebody may think it’s one and done. But I think where that kind of shifts is when you have those traditional protocols. And sometimes those are longer commitments, where you do those things and you’re, you’re starting to build that relationality, or those communities, and really looking at those in a longer term scope. So over a festival, over seasons, over years, and how you can really work on that to really keep integrating and bringing those things together.

Latham:  I really like what you were just saying, because it reflects back on what you said when we first started talking. Be aware of who is in your community. Be aware of who’s there. Because, as you said, in the lands that we’re currently sitting on, there are a number of different Indigenous communities, and like you’ve just said, one and done, is not one and done. And each Indigenous community has its own protocols, has its own culture, has its own history. And like you said, it’s history. It’s intellectual property. And don’t make the assumption that you know it.

And, you know, in some ways, being a new Canadian is, for me, really great because I have to ask. I can’t make assumptions because I don’t know it. And it would be like you coming to New Zealand. You would go – I’m not sure what’s going on here. But I think one of the things that we do is, we get a little settled. And, you know, we get a little. We do tap into the one and done, and sometimes we do that from an energy perspective where we don’t have time. We don’t have time to spend a lot of time engaging, and we don’t have budget. You know, there’s lots of reasons, and excuses, and anything else you want to call them, for the challenges of engaging. But from an Indigenous perspective, what are some of those challenges that you’re aware of in engaging in community cultural development projects through the Indigenous lens?

Cherweniuk: Yeah, so I think in that collaboration there are some. And I think we saw it for a little bit. There were a lot of people who were really excited to work and they just don’t know where to start. So they don’t know where to start, so then they don’t. They have this kind of freeze reaction where, you don’t want to do anything wrong, you don’t want to step on anyone’s toes, but because you’re not starting, and you’re not bringing in that communication, then you’ve alienated, or it seems like you’ve kind of snubbed someone from really having these conversations and bringing them into your work. So I think that’s always an interesting dichotomy of how do you start? Don’t be afraid, right? Like baby steps, small steps. And really building those connections and making those allies on both sides that can really help guide you in these processes.

For a while as well. I’ve seen from a community standpoint, people just wanting elders. Can I have an elder? And you’re like, well, o-okay. I would like an elder at my event. And you’re like, that’s a great starting point, but is that your starting point? So I think with that, I think it’s really important to engage with elders and knowledge keepers. But again, it’s really honing down on why you’re bringing them in. I think a lot of people – it became – There was a small period where maybe it was the thing to do was to bring an elder from your territory to do a prayer. But did you brief them on what event they’re working on, what what they’re doing? Because I think sometimes even working with some people within my community, you’d get to stuff and you’d be like, Who are you? And they just don’t know the purpose of what they’re doing. So I think that’s always one to make sure is really clear, is when you’re bringing in cultural experts or elders or knowledge keepers, that you do have that clarity why, and how, and what the purpose is.

Some other ones that I think may just need a moment of reflection and settling. I’ve seen in the last little bit, some really great up and coming new faces, students, things like that, who are really passionate about change and making sure these things are done. But sometimes they don’t look at how far we’ve come. So I think that’s always a moment, I think for anyone, to really have that reflection of how far we’ve come. There may be things that could still need work, but I think it’s equally important to really respect and acknowledge what has been done. So if you see projects or things in your city or your area that maybe aren’t as good as they could be now by our standards, but when we look at it from a lens of, it’s a project done ten years ago. And in that project they brought in elders and knowledge keepers, some people who may have passed in that time frame. But really making sure that we’re respecting what they did and seeing, yes, we may have passed that, but making sure that we’re still honoring them and their legacy in that work.

Latham: I love that. That is just so, so important. Because like you said, it’s. We are not new, we’re not the only, and we’re not the first. We are part of a long narrative, and a long game, long story, and bringing that in.

Cherweniuk: I think too, just in that itself, is understanding that sometimes there may be hesitancy in working, because there is that history. There is a very complicated history especially in Canada, of what, you know, government has done, what settler communities have done to our Indigenous communities. Intentional or not, government, a lot of purposeful systemic racism built into that, but understanding that we all come with those perspectives, and to tread lightly, and to know when to pull back. Or if things are happening, not kind of being like – “Oh, they hate me because of me.” It could be a very larger thing.

And I think the last kind of challenge that is also a really great point for the ongoing relationship is sometimes you have collaborative work and an organization will be like. Cool, it’s ours! Right? So you have things like knowledge keeper, community members, elders have worked on things. It came from them, they put it out, but that knowledge isn’t necessarily theirs. So there’s that inherent knowledge. There’s traditional knowledge that’s been passed down. There’s cultural knowledge. And even in a lot of conversations you may have is that the people who hold that knowledge don’t necessarily think they own it. Like I have things that I’ve been taught that I might share or I may not, but I will always make sure that it is clear who gave me it, who gave me those teachings. And that intention and making sure that when we’re working with Indigenous organizations, we’re working collaboratively to make sure those things are very clear. So intellectual property is always also a little bit…

Latham: Yeah, and it’s so new. It’s so new for everybody across – no matter who they’re working with and who their collaborating with. But I think it’s really important that you did bring it up here, because sometimes I think their… And, you know, I’ve had the privilege of working and living in a lot of countries in the world, and sometimes there seems to be this assumed view that the Indigenous knowledge isn’t intellectual property; it should just be shared. And your right, as you’ve said, that knowledge comes from a long story, and a long history, some of it great, some of it not great, but there’s still history in that. It still does belong to the people that it belongs to, and the story belongs to people. And I think it’s important that that is acknowledged, and acknowledged appropriately and properly.

This is a great segway into the million dollar question, really. What advice would you give to emerging arts managers who are trying to figure their way out in the world in relation to engaging with their Indigenous communities?

Cherweniuk:  Yeah, I think even piggybacking on our last topic of intellectual property. It extends to all genres within the arts and culture. So I think, if you’re able to, spending some time to really look at what that looks like. What do we have in place? What are some amazing things that people have done for us to really lay that foundational work? So there are bodies within Canada who’ve started looking at protocol within visual arts, but also looking at research and research ethics because that’s also really important. There’s a lot of, again, that history of making sure we’re doing things in a proper way. So there’s research ethics, there’s – any arts topic or anything under the sun – there’s an equivalent. And I think it’s really bringing in or seeing how you can make those connections to really Indigenize those things.

So for museums, it’s Indigenizing your museum practices. It can be your collection policy, it could be your access, but those things. So if you’re working, how are you continuing to work? So if you’re doing oral history projects, that’s pretty clear. What is that access to that primary source look like? Because that’s, not only the individual’s, but that’s also the community’s intellectual property, that’s that shared knowledge.

And I think understanding, if you can, at least some protocol questions. So understanding that there is protocol, that there is a time and a way things should be done, and making connections or being comfortable enough to even start those conversations. So if I’m, you know, we’ll flip it and say – I’ve come to New Zealand. You’re hosting me and I’m like, “Oh, Annetta, we’re going visiting. You’re taking me to see someone, what do I need to bring?” And it’s those small things, where, you know, hosting, I will say this again it’s a really easy start. Hosting and thank you gifts are great because they’re a really great icebreaker. They’re a really great toe in the water, but also pairing that with your budget and your honorariums. Making sure that you’re doing those things in a proper way. and then having that structure and that contract and those things. But also just making sure you’re doing it in and through an Indigenous lens, and how to even start that conversation. But also, don’t be scared.

Latham: Yeah. Oh, that’s great. And you serve food in New Zealand. I think food is a global language. But that is a wonderful piece of information. And to wrap this up, Brittany, thank you for your time. It’s been absolutely amazing and really insightful for me. And it’s only the beginning of the learning. I think that’s an important key. It’s only the beginning of the learning. And to keep learning, to keep engaged, and to keep doing that. And it’s okay to have a project that doesn’t have Indigenous engagement because it might not be the right fit. So don’t kind of try and squeeze it in just because you think it’s the right thing to do. I think it’s really important. But as we’re wrapping up, tell me about what your vision for the future is in relation to Indigenous and community cultural development and engagement?

Cherweniuk: Well, I just I think my dream and my vision is seeing those Indigenous faces in those spaces. So really, that integration of what our communities look like, represented in our organizations, and that’s on all levels. So if we’re working, if we’re presenting things for the community, does it look like our community? What is that reflection?

And really to keep this work and to look at it generationally, and to make sure that if we’re working within organizations that, you know – Me and you might have an excellent connection, but what does this framework look like if you leave? What does that look like, and what does that succession planning in a way look like? And I think that conversation.

And I really hope that people, as we’re still moving and progressing forward, that that conversation keeps going and doesn’t stop, and that we can have those meaningful connections. Because when you do work in a good way – sometimes you’ll hear that within Indigenous communities – It’s like “In a good way” it’s a quote. But it’s really looking at that through that lens, through protocol, through what could be ceremony, but really making sure that it’s done to reflect. And you can really feel the difference in those projects. You can really feel the difference when things are done in a respectful, authentic way; the audience can tell, the people involved can tell. And that means that we have stronger building blocks to keep moving forward.

Latham: That was wonderful. Thank you for your time, and thank you for joining us at Culture and Coffee. It’s been a delight talking to you.

Cherweniuk: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.